Friendship

Me: You feel better with a beer?

Friend: Maybe? I think so.

Me: I'm sure it'll chill you out as it goes. And I have more so you're welcome to have as much as you want. The first thing I actually wanted to ask you was, why did you pick friendship as the topic of this interview?

Friend: Well, I've had issues with friends, and I think a lot of people have, and I just think it's something that people haven't… there just isn't a lot of information out there. And I find myself like, not constantly looking for the information, but I do kind of like little searches every so often. I go to like… search podcasts and see if anyone's talking about friendships or like, if a YouTube video pops up on my feed that's about friendship I'm like, "Oh, what do these people have to say about it?" I kind of do seek it out.

Friendships, you know, they change and there are ups and downs, and some of them are gone. And I think that I still have some trouble figuring out how to work through them. I feel like I don't have all the tools right now to: one, be a good friend and two, figure out how to get through friendship breakups, because I still feel like I'm kind of in it. 

And also, I think there's a lot of people out there that are having issues with their friends and they… they also don't know what to do either. 

Me: That makes sense. Also – and I'll jump into the questions in a second – but I was thinking about this, I don't know, a couple days ago? I was thinking about how technology has probably made it so friendships can be more important than they used to be. Because… say before the Internet, you're either communicating the most with your family or once you get married it’s your spouse or if you live with a roommate. But other people you just don't communicate with very often, right? Like you would maybe talk with them on the phone, but then that's it. It's just whenever you see them in real life and then nothing. And then if they live somewhere else, then really nothing. 

Friend: Right. 

Me: Whereas now you can text your friends every day. You can talk about more real stuff too. If I can text you my problems whenever then I can tell you more than if I have to wait to see you in person. So I think maybe friendship has evolved. And maybe that's also part of why people don't know how to deal with it. Maybe this wasn't a thing before.

Friend: Yeah, like it didn't… matter. 

Me: Yeah, because you saw them like once a year and that's just how it went. But now that's not the case.

Friend: Yeah and maybe in the past, if you had an issue with your friend you just kind of stopped talking. 

Me: Yeah, exactly.

Friend: Because eventually you would anyway if you had your own family and you couldn't text. And they just didn't have to worry about it. But now it's like what you said. We're more connected, and so, if we have issues with our friends…

Me: Yeah, yeaah. 

Friend: We can't run away from them. They're there. They're like– 

Me: Yeah, because you're still dealing with – well you're not not dealing with, but you're still seeing your friends all the time. And then if you're not dealing with the issues that is going to be complicated. 

Friend: Interesting perspective.

Me: Yeah, that's what I was noodling on recently. Okay, I'm gonna jump into the questions now. When you think about like, how you were back in school, what did friendship mean to you back then? Like… place yourself in high school. When you think about friendship, what do you think?

Friend: Um, that it barely exists in my life haha. I think I was very lonely in high school. It just seemed like everyone had their own group of friends. And it's not like I didn't have any friends. I had one friend who I considered my best friend, but I feel like she was kind of hopping around in different groups. I think she was like, not popular, but people enjoyed her presence and she was invited to other things. People liked being around her. 

Whereas me, I felt like no one really... it kind of felt like no one really wanted to be around me. And so I felt really invisible. Really lonely. And I guess also, I just didn't have a group that I felt I really belonged to.

Me: Yeah, that makes sense.

Friend: Yeah, even though I had that one best friend I guess it just still didn't feel like it was enough.

Me: No, I don't think one person is enough when other people have a group. And then when you were younger, I think it was probably just, you're just doing your own thing.

Friend: Yeah, I think I was also lonely back then. I think I've always felt like, oh no, no one wants to be friends with me haha.

Me: That feeling is there for a lot of us for sure. Did you think it was always going to be like that, or were you hopeful about college?

Friend: Um, I think I was hopeful because I was living in the dorms and I knew that people made friends when they're in the dorms. It's like, what they do in the movies haha. Like oh, I hope I'll make friends. I feel like every time there was a transition in schooling, like, from elementary school to middle school, from middle school to high school, from high school to college, I was hopeful about making friends. And it wasn't until college where I actually did make friends.

Me: So speaking of that, do you remember when like, that click happened in college where it felt different?

Friend: Yeah, when I joined the org we were part of.

Me: Not before? Because that wasn’t until your sophomore year.

Friend: Not even before because the floor mates that I was friends with – we weren't close. I think it was just by association. We're like, oh, yeah, let’s hang out. But we would go to the dining hall and sometimes we wouldn't even talk. 

Me: So it wasn't deep friendship. 

Friend: No, it wasn't a deep friendship. It wasn't until our org and pledging that I started to feel like I kind of belonged somewhere and I started like, actually getting close to people.

Me: Yeah, a lot of us experienced that. I haven't actually talked to you about this that much. I mean, we have but not in the context of friendship. What was pledging like in the context of friendship?

Friend: I don't know. I think it was gradual, the friendships. It was weird because we were all people that were very different from each other and then were just put together. Of course I was thinking, I don't know if anyone wants to be friends with me. But then, slowly, we started doing things together. We started having conversations together. At first it was just one person, and then a couple, and then soon enough… everyone. We were doing so many things together because of pledging. And then just naturally, I started to feel like we got close and I was like, oh, I think… I think I have a group of friends haha.

Me: When did like, the more deep conversations start?

Friend: Well, I was with my boyfriend from that time. And it's that formula, right? It's like, oh, you're in a difficult situation. And these people who are near you are there for you, and then you go through it together and become closer. So I think that's kind of what happened. I started opening up to them and telling them what was going on. Whereas before I had no one to tell.

Me: Even as a freshman, like if you had issues with your boyfriend?

Friend: I had no one. I mean, there was this one girl, but we're not friends anymore. But we didn't even talk that much. Because my boyfriend and I shared all of our friends. I had no friends of my own. 

Me: So you couldn't like talk shit about him.

Friend: No haha. We shared everything.

Me: Lesson learned. When you started feeling more comfortable with your pledge class and opened up to them, did that then translate to you having more fun with them, too?

Friend: Oh, yeah, absolutely. When I started to feel more comfortable around them, I was having a lot of fun.

Me: Did that change… because I feel like, I don't know. I feel like I became… or, I had parts of me that I didn't realize existed until I was around people that made me feel comfortable enough to express them. Like did you ever… did you have stuff like that? Or did you just feel like oh, I can finally be myself around these people?

Friend: I think it's the second one. I was like, I feel like I can be me, or more me around them. I think that's what it was. I don't.. well, I mean, but there’s also parts of me that I feel like my friends did help me discover too. So yeah. Maybe it's a little bit of both actually. 

Me: It was also a long time ago. So once you guys joined the org and then later more of us started joining did that change things? 

Friend: Yeah Nune, that's when you and I became friends, of course it changed things!

Me: Oh, yeah. I guess I did join the semester right after you. But like, was it weird? At first, were you just like, I don't want things to change? I just want my people here.

Friend: I don't think I didn’t want new people. It was more of like, oh, how are these new people coming in going to change the group dynamic and how is this changing group dynamic going to affect my friendships with the people that I'm currently friends with here.

Me: Yeah, I remember that feeling.

Friend: Because it's always strange when someone new comes in. 

Me: It is strange. And then you're just like, okay, now we're supposed to be close. But it worked. So during this time, what did friendship mean to you?

Friend: It meant family, like a chosen family. I know that people talk a lot of times about chosen family in situations where their family has… it's not been positive, right? But for me, it's like oh, these are people that I'm choosing to have in my life. And this is my chosen family. Yes. I have my family. My parents, my sister. But these people are people that I chose to be in my life because I want them in my life.

Me: That's a big jump in a couple of years. 

Friend: I know, yeah. 

Me: Went from friendship being something that didn't exist much in your life to…

Friend: All of a sudden I have not just one but like, multiple people that I chose to be my friend family!

Me: What do you think that did to you? It had to have affected you somehow.

Friend: It made me really happy. I finally have these people I trust, people that I like being around, hanging out with. It just made me really happy and I'm always going to be grateful for that.

Me: Yeah, me too. I always wonder like, what if we hadn't found our group of friends. 

Friend: It'd be so sad.

Me: Yeah. If we were those versions of ourselves back from high school. What would have happened?

Friend: Yeah, I think having the friends that I do now, all of you guys have shaped me into the person that I am. And I think I wouldn't have grown if I did not have all of you guys. 

Me: Yeah, I feel the same.

Friend: I feel like I would probably still be very much that same person I was in high school. I don't think I would have grown. Not that I wouldn't have grown at all...

Me: Sure. Sure. But yeah. It's amazing how much our friends have helped us in that sense. Um, kind of still in college time but moving on to when we all started living together. How did it feel at first when you started living with me and our other friend? 

Friend: Well, I didn't know what to expect. 

Me: Yeah, I remember feeling that way. 

Friend: Yeah, cause. I mean, I knew our other friend, but I had never lived with her before. I kind of knew you but we didn't…

Me: I don't think we were super close. 

Friend: No, we weren't super close. That was before we like, talked. I thought you were cool!

Me: Yeah, likewise. 

Friend: I liked you. But we never had like, I don't think we even had a one-on-one hangout. So yeah, I didn't know what to expect. I think I was a little nervous because living with people, you don't know what's gonna happen. And it just like, was okay! 

Me: You look so surprised.

Friend: No no haha, I think it's just like, going into any situation like that..

Me: Yeah, and it was ok!

Friend: More than ok!

Me: Yeah, I think that's how I feel too. When do you think we all started getting closer?

Friend: Um, I'm sure that for like, you, me and our other friend. We probably each have a different moment where we felt like we started getting closer. For me it was actually pretty early on. It must have been like, either during the summer or right before classes started in the fall quarter. I was crying about my ex. 

Me: I remember that. 

Friend: And then you and our other friend came into my room to talk to me and console me and I was like, oh, this is really nice. That was when I was like, oh, I'm really glad that I'm living with them.

Me: I think that's probably what it is for me too. I think that was the first time I had seen you cry. Probably. I don't think you had cried around me.

Friend: I think probably, yeah. Probably.

Me: And that changes things. When someone's vulnerable enough to cry around you.

Friend: Yeah, I think that was maybe the first time I talked to you about my ex. Because like, our other friend had known about this for a really long time.

Me: Yeah I think that was probably the first time you talked to me about him. 

Friend: I think that's when he and I had like, broken up for real. And then I remember, I was talking to both of you guys about him and having his phone number and I don't know what to do and then our friend said, why don't you write down his phone number on a piece of paper, give it to me, and then I’ll hold on to it. You can delete it off your phone and if you ever want it back, I have it.

Me: Aww, that's so nice. 

Friend: Yeah, I still remember that. And I was like, okay! I never needed the phone number after that. 

Me: But just like the safety.

Friend: Yeah.

Me: Someone I trust has this and will keep it. Aw, that's such a mature thing. That's such a good idea. 

Friend: I know. Thank you, friend! 

Me: It's funny because like, when I look back on us back then, I feel like we were all so immature, but it's nice since we did some things right! There were some moments… that were nice.

Friend: Oh, yeah, there were plenty of moments where I was like, agh, but plenty of moments where we also did the right thing. Yeah, so I do remember that. And that's when I started to feel even closer to our friend and like, started to get close to you. 

Me: How do you think living with us impacted you? 

Friend: Ahh, Nune!

Me: You can totally cry if you want. Bonus points.

Friend: It was living with my best friends! And it was nice because like with you and me, we weren't close. We didn't really even know each other that well before we started living together. To go into a situation where I don't know what to expect and then to have a best friendship come out of it was crazy.

Me: In the span of a year!

Friend: Yeah. It was really quick. Because I think a lot happened to all of us that year. 

Me: Yeah, so much happened. That's a really good way to look at it. I had it in my head like you've always been one of my best friends but no, it was literally that year that changed it. I still remember you leaving, because you graduated a year before I did. You moving out. I was crying so hard after you left.

Friend: Yeah, that was sad! 

Me: Yeah, and that was a year. A year did that. That's… yeah. Pretty cool. If you think about it. Things happened at such a faster pace.

Friend: So quickly. It's just again, that combination of going through things together. Being vulnerable. Being there for each other. 

Me: Yeah. You mentioned like, a lot of stuff happening. When you were dealing with some of the more difficult things that you went through in college. Like, I mean, I hope your friendships helped.

Friend: Absolutely. Definitely.

Me: How did those... how do you think the friendships impacted those experiences?

Friend: I think that having the friendships that I did in college, if I hadn't had them… if I didn't have you guys when I was in college, I think I would have come out of college a complete mess. Mentally, emotionally, I would be wrecked. But having you guys there to like, just having you as a support system, I think shielded me and protected me from a lot of these really, really bad things that could have happened to me. And I always think about them. 

Just like, I would have been such a different person because I hear all these stories about people going through these really difficult experiences by themselves. And they come out of it not okay. And I'm like, that could have been me. But because I had all of you guys I'm intact. 

Me: Yeah. I think we all feel that for sure. It's so crazy and that's one of the things I wanted to figure out... not figure out because I can't solve it but like, all the bad stuff that people go through, like mentally and, you know, some people can handle it and some people aren't able to handle it. I feel like friendship is such a big part of that. But then I don't know how to... you can't create it right? It kind of just happens. 

Friend: Yeah. And it takes time too. 

Me: So much time. Yeah, because even back then, we were there for each other but I think we were... we knew each other, it's not like we didn't know each other. But our friendships have definitely matured over the years. 

Friend: They have. 

Me: Yeah, I don't know. That's just... I don't think that's a solvable thing. You just have to – but I guess like being open and having people you trust is an important part of it. And being vulnerable.

Friend: And I think like – yeah being vulnerable. I think with so many people now talking about how it’s important to be vulnerable, maybe people that are younger right now will feel like they're able to be more vulnerable. And then hopefully, hopefully, because of that they'll be able to form friendships more easily than us back then. 

Me: Yeah, that's true. But yeah, I'm very glad we all had each other back then.

Friend: Yeah. Cause I would not be ok.

Me: But you know, what I also think about is like, would you have been in some of those situations if it wasn't for us?

Friend: I think yeah, I think so. Which situations are you talking about?

Me: I don’t know, just anything with like, any of the guys in your life.

Friend: I… yeah, I think so. Yeah, cause in college, let’s say I wasn’t in our org right? I think there’s still a high chance of meeting people and interacting with people.

Me: And you still would’ve drank right?

Friend: Um, I think at some point I would have. Would it have been later? I don’t know. But I think at some point I would have.

Me: Because alcohol definitely plays a part.

Friend: Oh yeah. Yeah I think at some point I would’ve started drinking. And then things would’ve like… maybe not with these same people, but with different people. Potentially worse people, you know?

Me: Potentially, yeah. 

Friend: Yeah, so I still think it would’ve happened and I wouldn’t have had anyone and I would not be ok.

Me: Cause I guess you still had stuff that you were dealing with from before. So when we have stuff that we haven’t dealt with we, you know, make not the smartest decisions! And I’m not calling you out, I mean all of us. Literally all of us. But yeah, very very grateful for all our college friends. 

Um, we kinda touched on this but what was it like leaving college and being farther away from your friends?

Friend: It was really scary. It was really scary, cause like, I’d been physically near these people for so long, and now I’m moving back home. I don’t know what I’m doing with my life. All my friends don’t live two minutes away from me anymore. I don’t know what I’m going to do. Can I rely on myself? And also, am I going to lose some of these friendships because we’re not near each other anymore? And we’re not gonna be able to hang out as much anymore. And so it was scary.

Me: Yeah, it was scary. Did you lean into the relying on yourself piece or not really?

Friend: Not really, it was kinda just there and I was like oh, I know I’m going to have to do it but I don’t know what to do.

Me: I remember that feeling. Was there a point where you got used to it or it got ok again?

Friend: Mm, well you and I actually hung out a decent amount.

Me: Yeah I visited you a good amount.

Friend: Yeah, and we met in the middle a lot. So that was really nice. And it was kinda relieving for me, because I didn’t know what was going to happen to our friendship. So that was really nice. We met up at Starbucks haha.

Me: Yeah, I think being able to hang out with you after you graduated helped a lot, cause all of you left me!!

Friend: Ahh, I know!

Me: I definitely felt that same fear. What is going to happen to our friendships now?

Friend: Yeah, so I think because we were still hanging out, it wasn’t as… I mean it was sad that we weren’t near each other, but I felt more ok about our friendship because we were still seeing each other even though we weren’t living in the same place anymore.

Me: It was more evidence that oh, this isn’t a proximity friendship. Not that I ever thought it was a proximity friendship…

Friend: But you don’t know, cause you’ve never done it before.

Me: Yeah, like not a proximity friendship but can it survive distance? So the answer was oh ok, it can!

Friend: Yeah, it did. And I think it survived pretty well. I was like aw, we’re still hanging out a lot. This is nice.

Me: Yeah, I’m really glad about that. And then once we all graduated and stuff, and we were all adults-ish together, how did that feel?

Friend: It was wild haha. I think all of us were going through like, a lot of changes and I think it was hard for all of us to understand each other and what was going on. Because we each had our own thing that was happening. And I think that’s when we first started to all feel disconnected from each other. Yeah… adulthood, man.

Me: I wonder why that did it. Because it’s not like we didn’t have problems before, we just… were they simpler?

Friend: I don’t know, I think… well… after graduating we also had 8 hours of our day taken up by work.

Me: That’s true. 

Friend: So we had a lot less time and energy. That didn’t help.

Me: That’s a very good point. No it did not. So then like, as we started feeling more disconnected and stuff, how did that make you feel?

Friend: Really sad. I was like oh, I don’t know what to do because I’m trying to figure out what’s going on, but I don’t even know where to start. It was something that I was thinking about probably daily. And I was like, things are changing. I don’t know why they’re changing. Is it– am I doing something wrong? Is there something wrong with me? 

I don’t know, I think I was confused. Sad. And scared. I feel like I’m losing these friendships. I know that they’re still there, but they’re changing in a way where I don’t know what’s going to happen. And that was really scary.

Me: Did you think that the friendships really would end?

Friend: I didn’t think that they were gonna end, but I was like oh, what if this is going to be there forever, and it’s like, what am I gonna do?

Me: And you tried to talk to me about it and I didn’t really understand what you were saying back then.

Friend: I think all of us didn’t understand each other back then.

Me: It’s just so funny that that’s when the conflict started. We did such a good job of navigating everything in college, and then this… it’s interesting because like, I remember being so relieved one time I talked to you, I think it was a year after I graduated? About: “I’m sad and I don’t know why I’m sad” and you were like “Me too” and I was like “Oh my god, it’s not just me??” 

That was such like, I’ll always remember that because that’s when I was like oh, I’m not insane, there’s not something wrong with me for feeling like this. So you validating that was such a relief, but then I guess after that we never validated anything else for each other.

Friend: I know for me, the way that I describe the whole experience is like.. I just lost my words. I feel like before that, I was able to talk about my feelings, maybe not eloquently, but I was able to talk about it in a way where I was like yes, this is exactly what I mean, this is exactly how I’m feeling. But then, once that whole experience happened, when… I think it was me living alone. 

Once that experience happened I just lost my words. And it never came back. And I didn’t know how to tell anyone how I was feeling. Even now I struggle, even now I feel like I don’t have my words. And I didn’t know how to talk to anyone, to any of you guys about what was going on anymore.

Me: Because you didn’t know how to explain it.

Friend: Yeah. 

Me: Do you think it was partially… cause I know some of the stuff that we didn’t do a good job with as friends was being judgemental. Do you think that contributed to you losing your words?

Friend: No no, that was separate. The losing the words I think was just me living by myself. Me moving to a different city, starting a new job where everyone was older than me, really different from me, and just not having anyone. And being truly alone for the first time. I could not handle that. Everything came crashing down within weeks of me starting that job. 

I had a journal and I was kind of journaling once I graduated from college. And I remember that first year I was journaling, it was fun and I was able to express my feelings really well. But I remember maybe like 3 weeks into the move, I was writing in my journal, and all of a sudden I trailed off… I was like… I don’t know what to say. It was a very clear moment when that happened. And since then I have not been able to get my words back.

Me: Whoa. I don’t think you’ve ever said it like that to me.

Friend: I don’t think I’ve ever told anyone that. 

Me: That’s crazy.

Friend: Yeah. I still have that journal and I look at it and I’m like what happened?

Me: That’s such a visceral thing, to have the words stop.

Friend: Yeah they just disappeared. They stopped.

Me: Do you have any idea why? I know you said living alone and not having anyone but like, why?

Friend: I don’t know. Even now. And it started before I was living alone. I was living at my aunt’s house when this happened. And it was just like a big transition shock. Leaving a big city, going to work in a community college, being in this environment where the workplace was so slow that I had a lot of time. I didn’t have a lot of friends at work. I think the combination of all that. Having time and then being faced with everything. I guess everything that I hated about myself was laid out in front of me. There was no running. And it came crashing down so quickly, within weeks.

Me: And you… shut down basically.

Friend: I guess so. I just shut down, yeah.

Me: But now you’re more – cause at the time you probably didn’t realize what was going on. Because I know you told us that you were depressed and stuff, but this is more specific than that.

Friend: Yeah. I don’t know what happened. I just lost my words all of a sudden.

Me: But now that you’re aware of that, do you have any idea what to do to get them back?

Friend: No, I don’t. It’s like, I think I’m just trying different things. And I think that’s what I’ve been doing since it happened. I tried traveling, moving to a different country.

Me: Got it.

Friend: And all the art stuff I’m doing now. I think I’m trying different things to see if I can get my words back. Or I guess get that piece of myself back, you know? Because I don’t know where it went. 

Me: And that piece is you being able to express yourself?

Friend: Part of it, I think. 

Me: What is the rest of it?

Friend: I don’t know! It’s weird because you’d think if you lose something you would know what you lost. But I don’t know what I lost. I know to some extent. 

Me: That’s interesting. Has any of the stuff that you tried, has any of it felt like… maybe? 

Friend: Traveling, for a while. I was like, maybe this is it. Maybe this is what’s been missing for so long. Cause I remember telling you and our other friend how whenever I travel, it makes me feel beautiful. I feel very me, true to myself when I’m traveling. I don’t feel that way anymore. But back then I used to feel that way. And I was like, maybe this is part of the answer. But then I lost that too.

Me: And you don’t know why you lost that either. 

Friend: Yeah I’m not sure. I think it’s like–

Me: A bunch of things.

Friend: Yeah, a bunch of things. 

Me: Because your move to Asia didn’t exactly go well.

Friend: No, it didn’t help. Love hate relationship, you know?

Me: And the stuff you’re doing now?

Friend: Mm, it feels different from traveling. It feels a little more calm. I’ve noticed that when something feels calm to me, that’s a good thing. Like when an experience feels calm, that’s a good thing. If I feel calm around people, that’s a good thing. I feel calm doing this right now, and so I’m like… maybe it’ll help? Maybe not? I might hate it? I don’t know. 

Me: So interesting. Wow, not that that explains everything, but I guess I can kinda understand your decision making process better now. Huh. 

Friend: Yeah, cause that’s when we all started hanging out less.

Me: Yeah. Right, and if you felt like you didn’t have the words to express this stuff…

Friend: Cause I wanted to tell you guys, I really wanted to, but I didn’t know how to. I was just like stuck. A bottleneck? I was stuck. The words were here, the feelings were here but I couldn’t express them. So I was just like, I don’t know what to do, because I’m depressed, but I don’t know how to tell my friends. I want to tell them, I feel like they’ll be there for me, I just can’t. I don’t know how to.

Me: We also didn’t talk about stuff like that back then. We talked about situational things, and being sad about something specific, but I don’t think we talked about mental health. 

Friend: We didn’t.

Me: That’s a new development for sure. I’m sorry you went through that and are going through that.

Friend: It’s a lot better now.

Me: I’m glad. Huh. I will take a while to process that but I hope you find the missing parts of you over time.

Friend: I hope so too. Sometimes I wonder if they should even be found. Is it just a different version of me that I’m supposed to leave behind and I’m holding on to? Or is it actually something that is missing. I have no idea, because I don’t even know what it is. But I think a lot of people our age are experiencing that right now. I think you are to some degree too right?

Me: Yeah, I… l – mm, I don’t think I’m missing anything. For me it’s definitely, I go through periods of, I guess it’s depression. There’s been like two major periods of time where once I snapped out of it I’m like oh shit, I feel like I’ve been walking around in a coma or sleepwalking for a certain amount of time. The first time was after all the stuff with the guy I liked until I started my new job. 

Friend: Oh. That’s a long time!

Me: Yeah. 

Friend: That’s like two years!

Me: And I didn’t realize it until afterwards, until like… I think the new job was when I started to feel joy again. And not to say that I hadn’t had moments of it because obviously you do. I think I would notice if I had no happy days for two years. But not fully? 

And it was once I started this new job that I was like whoa, what was going on? And it wasn’t like you guys weren’t there for me. You were. And I didn’t even think that. Like I never thought, “I wish they were doing this for me or I wish they were doing that” because there wasn’t anything like that. 

After a while I just stopped talking about what had happened with that guy because I was like, well I’ve talked about him enough, there isn’t anything else to say. I don’t even have anything new to say on the subject. But I’m still sad. So I just stopped talking about it. And then eventually I think I stopped feeling stuff. So I think that’s what happens to me. I think my defense mechanism when life gets too much is to shut down my emotions and go numb. And I think that’s what I was doing during that period. 

Second time has been this past year actually. Yeah, like living alone definitely did it. And I knew going into it that it might happen, so I don’t think it was as bad as the last time. But definitely I realized that when you live alone, it exacerbates your bad habits so you have to really overcompensate to make up for them. I’m pretty lazy and I prefer not to clean and stuff like that. So when life gets too much, those are the things I stop doing first, especially when I’m living alone. Like I won’t turn my place into a pigsty if there’s someone else living there right? But living alone it doesn’t really matter. Except it does. 

Friend: It probably matters more.

Me: Yeah, it matters more. So I think I’m out of it now. Not to say I’m… eh, it’s in and out. There’s days where I feel numb, but I’m aware of it and I know that I’ll snap out of it. Whereas I think the first time it happened… I don’t know.

Friend: You just didn’t know.

Me: I didn’t think about it until I was out of it actually. I didn’t realize how unhappy I was until I was out of it. I think I could’ve kept going like that for a pretty extended amount of time. So I think mine’s a little different.

Friend: And I guess with this second time, maybe because you know, you recognize what it is, that makes a difference. Because like, when I was in high school, people were starting to talk about mental health and depression. I don’t remember in what way teachers were talking about it, or like the administration was talking about it, I don’t remember. But I remember depression being talked about. And I think just knowing depression exists and what it is helped in some way. It’s almost like you… how do I put this into words. If I hadn’t known what it was, I would’ve just been so lost.

Me: Right, you wouldn’t have recognized what you had.

Friend: Whereas having some knowledge of what it is helps. So maybe with this second time…

Me: Yeah, I think so. Because I went through it before, I’m like oh yeah I recognize this. Not always. It took me a few months this time. It was a lot shorter but it was a few months. I knew I was unhappy, but I don’t think I realized I was back in that zombie state until I don’t know that happened. I think I just – I had one day where I heard live music, or something like that, and I was like whoa.

Friend: “I haven’t felt this in a long time.”

Me: Yeah. And you know, it’s been the pandemic, a lot’s been going on. But I think now I realize when I go through a life transition, especially one that makes things difficult, that I need to keep an eye out for that. Because I think my… I will default to that numbness again and that’s what I want to avoid. But, yeah. We all are going through our own stuff.

Friend: We are. 

Me: But I’m glad we’re talking about it.

Friend: Yeah. Whereas before we weren’t talking about that at all.

Me: No, not at all. I guess we just didn’t have the capacity to talk about it?

Friend: I think we just didn’t know that we should have talked about it.

Me: Yeah. We barely figured it out ourselves let alone trying to communicate it to other people, so that is a lot of growth.

Friend: And I think that’s helped a lot of our friendships. Just understanding mental health a little better. And talking about it a little more openly. Even if we’re not talking about ourselves specifically, just talking about mental health. It helps knowing that our friends have an understanding of mental health. 

Me: We’ve normalized it. And I think society in general, I feel like the last couple years people have definitely talked about mental health more so that makes sense. 

Kind of jumping back into the questions a little bit, when you left for Asia, where do you think our friendships stood?

Friend: I wasn’t sure what was going to happen. Because when I left for Asia…

Me: Five years ago.

Friend: Oh my gosh yeah, five years ago. I know for me I was struggling with our friendships. And right before I left was when I had wanted to start trying to tell you guys what was going on. I tried with you first and we all know how that conversation went.

Me: Yeah, it didn’t go very well. And my bad for– 

Friend: No no, it was just me going like, I think this is the wrong wording. This is not the right way to go, she thinks I’m weird now. This is not the right wording.

Me: I didn’t think you were weird, it just made me think that we had fundamentally different thoughts on friendship. What I got out of that conversation was that for you, friendship was unconditional and for me, it’s not unconditional. I will accept a lot from my friends but not everything. So it’s not like I thought you were weird, it just made me think we were very different in that regard. And I felt sad that you didn’t… that you were struggling with our friendship. And upset because it felt like you didn’t think we were good enough friends. 

But yeah, so you had tried to talk to me and it didn’t go well.

Friend: Yeah, because at that point it had been like three years of me trying to figure out what to do. And I talked to no one.

Me: And we didn’t realize. I think we eventually realized there was some kind of distance, but I don’t think any of us realized what was going on. 

Friend: Yeah, because I didn’t know if you guys felt the distance. 

Me: At some point, but I don’t think I realized to what degree it was and that it was all aspects of your life being impacted.

Friend: Yeah, it was everything. Career, mental health, my friendships, everything. So I was sad, right before moving to Asia. Because I wasn’t sure what was going on. I was like, these are my best friends and we’ve been through so much together but how come I can’t figure this out? What am I doing wrong? I’m trying, I’m thinking, but nothing’s working and nothing’s clicking. And I didn’t talk to anyone about it. And that made it even more difficult. I was trying to figure it out by myself. I shouldn’t have been trying to figure it out by myself, looking back. But I didn’t know. So I wasn’t sure what was going to happen to our friendships once I left.

Me: What a time to leave to the other side of the world.

Friend: But even when I was in Asia I was thinking about it all the time, like daily. Because these friendships are important to me. You guys are important to me. I don’t want things to be this way, so I need to figure out what to do. So it was something that was weighing on me all the time. What about this? What about this? What if I change this? What if I change that? 

Me: That must have been so exhausting.

Friend: I didn’t know what to do. And even when I was in Asia and we weren’t all physically together, I was still thinking about it. Cause I knew that at some point I was going to go home. And I didn’t want to lose the friendships.

Me: No, of course not. So as you were thinking about all this stuff, do you think that impacted how you were making friends in Asia? 

Friend: Well I didn’t think I was going to make any close friends in Asia. Cause I was like.. Come on haha. But I don’t know if it impacted it. Um, no I don’t think it impacted, do you mean negatively? 

Me: Yeah I guess, was it harder to make friends, or on the flip side were you like oh my friendships back home are like eh and look at these bright new shiny friendships. It could go either way.

Friend: So. I think.. Hmm. So I was trying to figure out what was going on with our friendships and what I could do. And then I wasn’t expecting to make close friends cause like hashtag no new friends. And the two close friendships that I made, it kinda like happened. I wasn’t thinking about it, I wasn’t expecting it. So it was independent. I was like oh, I’m close to these two people in a different way than I am to my friends at home but it wasn’t, they weren’t like you guys. It was different because there was so much about me they didn’t know – they still don’t know.

Me: Yeah, new friends don’t have the history.

Friend: They don’t have the history. There’s a huge chunk of me that they don’t know. So I guess with those two friendships there was still, it wasn’t a disconnect, but there were things about me that they don’t know. The way that they see me feels strange, it doesn’t feel like it’s 100% me. Whereas with you guys, I feel like you guys know more about me. And it’s not anyone’s fault. 

Me: No, it’s literally when you met. 

Friend: Yeah. 

Me: So then as you were making these friendships and dealing with our friendships what did friendship mean to you at that point?

Friend: I think I was sad. Yeah, I was sad. I mean I made these two friends and I was happy, but I was still sad. I was still sad that there was this disconnect between me and my friends at home. And it wasn’t the physical distance. 

Me: Do you think as you stopped teaching and were traveling around did anything in your perspective shift? Or were you still in this question phase?

Friend: I was in the question phase since I started questioning. I never stopped questioning it.

Me: Even now?

Friend: Uhhh, now it’s less. Because now we talk about things more. We had that one conversation that I think really helped. But I think now it’s just that missing piece. It’s all connected. There’s this missing piece of… I don’t know if it’s a missing piece, maybe that’s the wrong way to put it. Because I know what it feels like to have a missing piece but I don’t really feel that way anymore. It’s just me not being able to express my… I don’t know! Even now I can’t express it. I think it’s just, it’s up to me to figure out whatever this is. 

Me: It kinda just sounds like you’re trying to figure out who you are now and what our friendships were, the version of you that existed in our friendships back then doesn’t exist anymore. And the person you are now, maybe not all of the pieces connecting our friendships are there anymore. There’s still other connections in our friendship, but some of the things that connected us before are not there anymore.

Friend: Mm. Kinda?

Me: You can say no, that’s fine.

Friend: I think, I don’t think I fully know who I am as a person. And if I don’t know who I am as a person fully, then how am I supposed to know who I am as a friend? And I think it’s all connected in that way. Now it’s up to me to figure that out. 

Me: Do you feel like in college you knew, or you thought you knew who you were?

Friend: Yeah, I thought I knew who I was. And I was really happy. Yeah, I was confident. And it wasn’t, not superficial confidence, but, it wasn’t as stable of a confidence as I thought it was. Cause clearly I crashed and burned real fast. 

Me: I wonder if something went missing or you realized that something wasn’t there. 

Friend: Yeah or that something was wrong. 

Me: Yeah and maybe it always was and you just didn’t realize it. 

Friend: Yeah. It could be anything. 

Me: Easy! Totally solvable. But I think you’re going about it the right way to figure it out.

Friend: I think it’s up to me now to figure it out.

Me: And I think you’re doing a good job.

Friend: I hope so. I’m trying to do it in healthier ways.

Me: And you do seem a lot calmer, like you said.

Friend: Yeah, I do feel better. I’m not 100% but I feel better, and that feels great.

Me: So when you came back from Asia, how did it feel to come back and rejoin our friendships in the same proximity?

Friend: I was scared. I was really scared because I didn’t know what was going to happen. Because I spent two years away, two years away in another country. And that experience really changed me. And that was probably the first time that all of you were, that we were all that physically far away from each other. Where we really weren’t experiencing things together. And I knew that was gonna change the friendships, but I didn’t know in what way it would change the friendships. So to come back, having all these questions and also having lived in another country for two years, I was worried. I was scared. Cause I was like what if an explosion happens and… cause you know me! What if something like that happens and we’re just done done?

Me: Nah. I hope, I mean I don’t think you feel that way anymore.

Friend: No, no. I don’t. 

Me: Even if you exploded. I think it would have to be quite a big explosion. 

Friend: Yeah it would have to be. I’m not at any near point of an explosion. But yeah it was very scary coming back from Asia. I also didn’t see you guys that much after coming back. Because my boyfriend from that time, trying to figure out all that was a mess, and then my feet got hurt and I wasn’t really talking to anyone because I was really trying to figure that out. Once that was resolved, then COVID happened, then I didn’t see you guys at all. And that really didn’t help. During COVID I was still very worried about our friendships, because I felt like I hadn’t really transitioned back into my life post-Asia because all this had happened.

Me: In such a short amount of time.

Friend: Yeah, so throughout COVID I was still really worried about our friendships.

Me: Do you remember when us and our other friend got brunch and we talked in the car? When was that?

Friend: That was right after my boyfriend and I broke up. Three weeks before I hurt my foot.

Me: Yeah, ok. Because that felt like an important conversation.

Friend: Yeah, that was a very important conversation, and I was like, oh my gosh I think I’m actually heading in the right direction. But then, again, it all happened so fast. When I crash, it happens so fast. Within three weeks! I hurt my foot, and then it was bad again.

Me: When something that dramatic, literally changes your life physically happens, it’s hard to be like oh yeah, I’m on the right track.

Friend: And it was even more difficult because I was up here. And I was feeling a lot better. And to suddenly go low that quickly, I think that made things a hundred times worse. Cause it wasn’t gradual, it was really sudden. And then I was like oh no, my foot. Oh no, my friendships. Oh no, COVID.

Me: So was it like that pretty much all during lockdown?

Friend: Yeah. I was worried about friendships. Again questioning what do I do? What am I doing wrong? What can I do? How do I figure this out? 

Me: It’s such a long time to be thinking those things.

Friend: Yeah. And still not really talking to anyone about it. I told one of my friends from Asia once. I didn’t mention names, just oh, I have these really close friends at home but I feel like there’s this distance between us and I don’t know what’s going on. And I talked to her about it but she doesn’t know what’s going on. 

Me: You didn’t say anything specific.

Friend: No, yeah exactly. So she tried, but she didn’t know, she didn’t know who you guys were. 

Me: It’s like if you can’t figure it out how can she. 

Friend: Yeah. And so, it still felt like I was doing it alone and still having all these questions and trying to figure it all out.

Me: That’s a lot.

Friend: Yeah. I never stopped thinking about our friendships. 

Me: It sucks that all this has happened to you but I appreciate that you didn’t give up, cause I feel like a lot of people at a certain point would’ve been like this is just not worth the energy anymore. 

Friend: I didn’t want to give up, cause I was like these are my best friends!

Me: Thank you for not giving up. It says a lot about what we mean to you. And it’s not like I don’t know, but still. Putting it into perspective like that is kinda crazy. And I’m sorry that it was so long.

Friend: I think it’s just like, twenties. We just don’t know what we’re doing.

Me: So then, that conversation we had here at my house. Was that when things got a little better? Was it only at that point?

Friend: Yeah, so it was interesting because a couple weeks before that, I was like ok, I think I’m going to have the conversation with them. I’m going to do it. But when we had it I wasn’t ready. I was not prepared. 

Me: The universe was like oh yeah?

Friend: No, not this soon! But yeah, a couple weeks before that conversation I was like, let me try to figure out what it is I want to talk to them about. I don’t know how it’s going to go, is it going to end our friendship? I don’t know? Because I don’t know how you guys feel. The funny thing is I could’ve just asked you guys how you felt and resolved this. But no, I didn’t think to do that. I had to think about so many other things but I didn’t think to do this. But yeah, I was like, I’m going to have this conversation with them. And then, little did I know.

Me: It’s not like we planned it either, it just happened.

Friend: Yeah, it just happened. And I was like oh, I guess this is happening now. I’m not ready but it’s happening. 

Me: I don’t think you would ever be perfectly ready. I almost prefer it happened that way. Cause maybe you said more of what you were thinking. 

Friend: Maybe.

Me: Because if you had like rehearsed it a lot, maybe that would’ve… yeah I don’t know. Wow, that’s so funny.

Friend: Yeah, that timing. I was like whaat. 

Me: So then after that conversation do you feel like, has it been easier? Has it been better?

Friend: I think it’s been better. I think with me in general, the rest of it is up to me, to figure out what’s going on. With our friendship, of course things will come up. Hopefully we’ll live for another while longer, and things are going to come up. And I hope now we know to talk to each other about these things. Because before I would worry like oh, this is gonna come up, this is gonna change, what are we gonna do when that happens because we can’t even figure things out now. Whereas now I feel better about our friendships because I know that we’ve all matured, and if something is wrong I hope we can all talk about it. 

Me: Yeah, I hope so too. I think so. 

Friend: From my perspective, I think the rest is up to me to figure out what’s going on. 

Me: Right cause it’s not just friendships–

Friend: No, no. Although I do feel a lot better. 

Me: Good. That’s a nice story arc for sure. Do you feel like your friends are back to being, at least at times, positive impacts?

Friend: OF COURSE!. 

Me: Not just for your life but your state of mind? Helping you talk about stuff?

Friend: Of course, you guys always have been! And it’s not like during that period of time you guys weren’t. You still were. It’s just other things that I didn’t know what to do.

Me: Yeah I know, but I just want to make sure that things that you’re going through, you feel like you can talk to us about it now. Or if you do talk to us, we are at least to a degree helping you.

Friend: Yeah, I do feel that way. 

Me: Ok, I’m glad. 

Friend: I don’t think I’ve ever not felt that way.

Me: Even with the distance?

Friend: Even with the distance. I never felt that. And that’s another reason why I was so sad. I was like, these are people that I trust, these are people that I know I can go to. These are people I still do go to. 

Me: Yeah, that’s confusing. Because yeah, it’s not like you stopped telling us everything.

Friend: No, I definitely still told you guys things.

Me: Right, and again, we would’ve noticed if you had just stopped telling us anything. Well good, I’m glad. We have come a long way. I didn’t know that we would ever have that conversation so I’m very glad we did. 

Friend: It was funny when you said that that day, I was like, oh, I was planning on having the conversation. 

Me: Well that’s me now, I don’t like leaving things unsaid. That’s actually partially thanks to you. Actually a big part thanks to you. Back then you and our other friend were pushing me to tell that guy how I felt. I think that’s when I was like, this is important. Saying how you feel is very important. So after that I was like “I should do this more often.” 

Friend: It’s not always easy, but it’s usually worth it.

Me: Yeah, I think so. And it’s gotten a lot easier for sure. The more we do it, the easier it becomes in my opinion. But I’m glad, I’m glad it’s better. Anyway, almost done, but the last thing I want to ask you about is the future. I know you’re not doing a whole lot of planning long-term, but what do you want for your future? And you can be as broad about that as you want.

Friend: I think I like feeling calm. I know I’m not a calm person. I know. 

Me: You can be, you definitely can be. 

Friend: I think when I say calm I mean, calm in the way…

Me: Centered?

Friend: Yeah, centered. Yeah, I hope I can maintain that. I know that’s going to be up and down because life happens. Yeah, I hope to be calm. And yeah–

Me: And not to interrupt you – I know you’re like “I’m not a calm person” but I do feel calm around you a lot of the time.

Friend: Really!!

Me: Yeah, for sure.

Friend: Interesting, because I think I induce anxiety in people.

Me: No, absolutely not. I don’t think you induce anxiety in any of us. No, I think we all feel very calm around you. 

Friend: Are you sure?

Me: Yeah, I’m very sure. 

Friend: Sure?

Me: Very positive. 

Friend: I feel like I also induce stress.

Me: No! Why would we be friends with you if you induced stress in us?

Friend: I dunno, cause we’ve been friends for so long!

Me: That’s a dumb reason to. I’m also past the point of staying friends with someone because – no, the only time you induce stress is when you’re going through something and we’re like oh no, how do we help her? That’s the only time. But other than that, other than when we’re upset for you, no, you’re a very calming presence.

Friend: Interesting. 

Me: I think it’s because we can be ourselves in front of you. And you’re not judgemental.  

Friend: I dunno, I just feel like I cause a lot of stress.

Me: You do not, you do not. Only to yourself.

Friend: Ugh, I cause a lot of stress to myself. 

Me: You do it all to yourself and you don’t leave any stress for the rest of us. So you want to be calm–

Friend: Calm and centered. I don’t think – I think I used to be the kind of person that would strive for excellence in everything that I do. So this nurse I follow on TikTok, she was talking about how she’s always been the kind of person that when she does something, she wants to do the absolute most difficult thing. She wants to be the best at the most difficult thing that she’s doing. So she’s a nurse, and when she graduated she became a pediatric nurse in the ICU unit. And it’s intense. And she said, yeah I wanted to take that position because I knew it was the most intense nursing position she could get. And she said it sucked haha. 

So she was talking about that, and I was like, you know, I think I’m kinda like that too. The difference is she actually got there, I never did. I was striving for it and I always felt like I had to be the best at whatever it was that I was doing. I had to do the most difficult thing to prove to myself that I could, that I am good enough to do all this. But now I just want to do things because I want to do them. There’s still a part of me that wants to strive for excellence. I don’t think it’ll go away, I kind of wish it wasn’t there. But I think maybe not focusing on that as much and just focusing on doing something that I like. And it’s ok to be an average person. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Me: No, most people are average. 

Friend: Yeah, and I don’t have to be the best.

Me: The best doesn’t even exist, you know? It’s a made up thing. I think that’s a good thing to strive for. And I think it’s an interesting callback to a couple years ago, I think that conversation in the car with us where you were like “I don’t even know what I like. I don’t even know what I enjoy.” So I feel like it’s a pretty cool step forward that you’re like, “I want to do what I like!” And you’re doing things that you like! 

Friend: Yeah, I’m trying.

Me: But that’s cool! Because a couple years ago you didn’t even know what that looked like.

Friend: No, I had no idea! I was just like, oh my gosh, I just drink, that’s all I do! That’s so sad! 

Me: Quarter life crisis for sure haha. But that’s really cool that you’ve made that progress in a couple of years.

Friend: I am proud of myself. I wasn’t doing it during COVID, but I’m glad I’m doing it now. I still don't fully know what I like but I’m trying to figure it out. 

Me: I think that’s the important thing. Yeah, I think that’s a good goal for the future. And I’m very confident that you can achieve it. 

Friend: Thanks.

Me: And, last question, what do you think or hope friendship will mean to you in the future?

Friend: Mm. I don’t know! I wish we could interview someone that’s older and ask, what does friendship mean to you?

Me: I can do that!

Friend: Yes, please do that. I’m curious. I hope it would still mean chosen family. It has always meant chosen family to me. And I’m pretty sure it’ll stay that way? I hope it stays that way.

Me: Yeah, I think so. 

Friend: Um. I don’t know. I think it’s all kind of the same thing. Chosen family. Feeling safe. Feeling happy. Yeah, just having my family. I don’t think I hope for anything different. I think this is it. Unless something happens haha. I hope we live for a little while longer and find out!

Me: Yeah, but I agree. I’m very very happy with our friendships. Maintaining it would – I’m more than happy with that. And evolving! I think they are obviously evolving.

Friend: Oh yeah, they’re going to evolve, because a lot’s gonna change. 

Me: So much is gonna change. 

Friend: The next couple years a lot’s going to change. 

Me: I’m definitely nervous about that.

Friend: Oh I’m nervous about that too. 

Me: And I already kind of feel myself pulling away a little bit. Especially with the people that are going to get married and stuff soon. I’m like ah, they’re going to go do their own thing and then those of us that are not getting married will do our own thing. But it feels a little more solitary. Not that I think anything will happen to our friendships but it’s just different.

Friend: Yeah I’m definitely nervous about that too. 

Me: I think because of that I’m relying on myself – I’m trying to learn to be there for myself. Not because I think my friends won’t be there for me but there’s times where I won’t want to ask my friends to be there for me. I’d rather be there for myself.

Friend: But of course we’re here if you need us. 

Me: Yeah, I know that. But yeah, that’s a good answer. Ok that’s all.